You do know Hannah is an Orthodox Jew?
Yes, but she's said more than that about herself here. I consider that her lifestyle is in contradiction to Orthodox Judaism in the same way that that lifestyle is in contradiction to the gospel, so it would not have surprised me to find inconsistencies in what she was saying. As I'm not a representative of Judaism, however, I wasn't going to tell her what she 'should' do. I'm willing to apologise if you can show me I was discourteous to her.
So I'm doing this reader's or when I post elsewhere and learn I'm gay get all sorts of ideas, infer things about me that are well off the ball.
1). Orthodox traditional Judaism and homosexuality
In short: orthodox Judaism teaches that homosexuality or male same sex attractions are not prohibited. What is prohibited according to the Torah is anal sex between men.
The Torah addresses is certain specific homosexual conduct. The Torah says:
"Ve-et zachar lo tishcav mishkevei isha to'evah hi" (Vayikra 18:22) : "A man shall not lie with another man as he would lie with a woman, it is an abhorrence" (Leviticus 18:22).
"Ve-ish asher yishcav et zachar mishkevei isha to'evah asu shneihem mot yumtu demeihem bam." (Vayikra 20:13): "A man who lies with a man [in the way of] lying with a woman, both of them have done an abhorrent thing and shall die for it." (Leviticus 20:13).
Chazal- the Rabbis and Sages of the Talmud - understand that here "mishkevei," which is translated as "lie," means anal penetration (Sanhedrin 54). So the Torah, Chazal tell us, says that two men should not have anal sex; it is a to'evah--an "abhorrence" . We learn that to'evah is a contraction for "to'eh atah bah" ("being led astray") (Nedarim 51a). A man may be led astray from his wife and home by having anal intercourse with men (Tosafos on Nedarim 51a).
The translation of "to'evah" is usually "abhorrence" or "abomination." It is used in the Tanach (the Bible) approximately one hundred times in connection with various kinds of conduct such as arrogant behavior, using false scales, and most often worshiping idols (avodah za'ra). To'evah is used in many situations that do not involve issues of sexuality or "morality" and this broader use indicates that the transgression is more in the nature of a "mistake."
2). Orthodox Traditional Judaism and lesbianism
In short : the written Torah does not specifically prohibit lesbianism : again Judaism teaches any sin to be an act of a sexual nature and not the person , not the orientation. However this prohibition is Rabbinical and not Torah based.
The Torah does not specifically address homosexual conduct between women at all, but rabbinic tradition says that women should avoid it , although some say lesbian women aren't actually having sex anyways when they're having sex (Even HaEzer 20). Sexual activity between two women, though, is not a to'evah and it is not anyone's business to patrol Hannah's Sarah's bedroom .
Interestingly, when we turn to the first source of Jewish teaching, the written Torah, the Five Books of Moses, we find that the sections which outline prohibited sexual unions (Leviticus 18 and 20) do not include a single word about lesbianism.
The context of each verse is a lengthy statement detailing prohibited sexual unions; the operating rationale is the separation of Israel from the peoples around them, and their consecration to God. And it is here, right at the beginning of the story of homosexuality and Judaism, that we find a clue to the assumptions underlying Jewish teaching on lesbianism which emerged centuries later: women are included in the texts of Leviticus 18 and 20, of course, but with the exception of the case of bestiality (Lev. 18:23), women are the objects, not the subjects, of the different types of sexual union, and there is no mention at all of women in relation to one another.
The first Rabbinical mention of sexual contact between women is made by the rabbinic sages in Sifra (Acharei Mot 9:8), a work of halakhic midrash (that is, rabbinic exegesis of legal biblical material) which comments on the book of Leviticus .
Here, referring to the “laws” of Egypt and Canaan which the Israelites are prohibited from following (Lev. 18:3), the text cites as an example that “a man would marry [nosei] a man, and a woman a woman”—a clear reference not only to same-sex intimate acts, but also to on‑going relationships between same‑sex partners.
The next brief comments are found in the Babylonian Talmud, tractates Shabbat and Yevamot. Shabbat 65a/b refers to the father of Samuel (Samuel being the pre‑eminent authority among Babylonian Jewry in the middle of the third century) not permitting his daughters “to sleep together”. The text offers two explanations for his position: one view links it to a teaching of Rav Huna (a disciple of Samuel’s principal colleague and sparring partner ): “For R. Huna said: ‘Women that play around [hamesolelot] with one another are unfit [pesulot] for the priesthood [i.e. to marry a High Priest].’” The majority of the sages, however, reached a different conclusion: “No: it was in order that they should not become accustomed to an alien body [gufa nuchra’ah].”
Yevamot 76a makes it clear why the law does not follow Rav Huna. Rav Huna’s teaching is rejected because, unlike heterosexual cohabitation, sexual intimacy between women does not render the individual women concerned “unfit”; it is peritzuta, “obscenity”, not zenut, “unchastity” or “harlotry”. And if the women’s behavior does not render them “unfit”, they are not thereby debarred from marrying a High Priest (who must only marry a virgin—that is, a woman who is “fit”).
The expression “play[ing] around”, hamesolelot, is a rabbinic euphemism for sexual behavior (sometimes translated as “making sport” or “committing lewdness”) and is only used of women who engage in intimate acts with each other .
After the Babylonian Talmud , there were no further textual references to lesbian behavior until Maimonides (or Rambam) clarified the halakhic position in his code, the Mishneh Torah (Hilchot Issurei Bi’ah 21:8). He wrote:
“For women to play around with one another is forbidden and belongs to ‘the practices of the Egyptians’ concerning which we have been warned, ‘You shall not copy the practices of the land of Egypt’…But though such conduct is forbidden, it is not punishable by lashing since there is no specific prohibition against it and in any case no sexual intercourse takes place at all."
Incidentally Rambam continues:
"Consequently, such women are not forbidden to the priesthood on account of unchastity, nor is a woman prohibited to her husband because of it, since this does not constitute unchastity. But it is appropriate to flog such women since they have done a forbidden thing. A man should be particularly strict with his wife in this matter, and should prevent women known to indulge in such practices from visiting her, and her from going to visit them.”
Maimonides’ formulation of the halakha was upheld by Jacob ben Asher (1270‑1340) in his Arba’ah Turim a century later (Even haEzer 24), and by Joseph Caro (1488‑1575), whose Shulchan Arukh (Even ha‑Ezer 24), published in 1563, became the authoritative guide to halakha throughout the Sephardic Jewish world—a status it still occupies within Orthodox Jewry today. The Shulchan Arukh was the “final word” on the subject for 400 years.
3). Orthodox Judaism and Gay marriage
In short : Orthodox Judaism celebrates marriage big time. In the Sephardi world we celebrate marriage before, during and after (for 12 nights , rather than a honeymoon) . There's a huge amount of custom there and it is a familiar as well as community celebration.
Judaism defines marriage as between a man and a woman. Although this is relatively new, because it was not until the 11th century that Ashkenazi Jewry decided to abolish polygamous marriages : us Sephardic Jews never did, but that practice just died out, maybe with the exception of Sephardim and Yibbum (Leverite marriage).
Orthodox Judaism is of the strong view that marriage provides spiritual fulfilment, support, companionship, and yes physical fulfilment & pleasure in sexual intercourse. The Torah says 'man should not be alone' (Genesis 2,18) and that he should cherish a woman in an intimate way (Genesis 2,24) , if we read The Talmud, the Rabbis make strong statements about marriage and in typical polemical style to emphasise the point say ‘a man who has no wife is doomed to an existence without joy, without blessing, without experiencing life’s true goodness, without Torah, without protection, without peace’[. Yevamot 62b] and again elsewhere ‘Be careful about the honour of your wife, for blessings only come to your house because of your wife’ [Bava Metzia 59 a] .
It should be noted that Judaism also says that a Jew may only marry another Jew and that even within the context of male - female marriages there are specific prohibitions on various forms of incest , although uncle - niece marriage is not forbidden by Jewish law and neither is first cousin marriage (incidentally where the civil law prohibits those types of marriage , Judaism respects the civil law).
4).Secular civil marriage and civil partnerships
In short :
However what we are discussing here is Judaic marriage and there is also (alongside other religions version of marriage) , civil or secular state marriage (in the UK there is also civil partnerships). The government have gone out of their way to protect the established church of England (by banning gay marriages in their churches) and allowing religions to choose whether or not they wish to marry gay people
Furthermore mine is a religion which doesn't seek to graft its own ideals into the culture of the communities we live in, but we are called to be good citizens and obey the law. I can therefore fully support state gay marriages and civil partnerships, whilst also understanding that my religion does not agree with the concept (or at least very few Orthodox Rabbis have been able to Paskin and also provide a concrete halanic case for Jewish gay marriages that's accepted by the wider community).
5). Me , Sarah and other Gay and Lesbian Jews.
In Short : gay and lesbians should be part of the Jewish community and do as many Mitzvah as possible, such as observing Shabbat.
As frum Jews, we strive to observe as many mitzvos as possible. Some decide not to act on their sexual feelings and choose to be celibate. Others feel that they need intimate sexual contact with another person; so they kiss, hug, and caress, may touch in ways that lead to orgasm (such as mutual masturbation), and may also have oral sex.
Some men, though, decide not to have anal sex based on the psukim in Vayikra (verses in Leviticus), and understand this to be a limit that G-d put on what two men can do (other limits, for example, are placed on what we eat (kashrus, the Jewish dietary laws) and when straight couples can have sex (niddah, the marital purity laws)). The important thing to remember is that whatever you decide, you are always a Jew and you can also be frum i.e. orthodox.
Every Jew is rewarded for each mitzvah he does and is responsible for each averah (transgression) he commits. Just because a Jew cannot observe every mitzvah does not mean he should not do any and does not mean that he cannot live within a framework of traditional Judaism. All Jews have shortcomings: "for there is no person so wholly righteous on earth that he [always] does good and never sins" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). We can observe Shabbat and yomim tovim (the Sabbath and holidays), keep kashrus, daven (pray), learn Torah, visit the sick, give charity--in short we can do as many mitzvos as possible
"Be-kol drachechah da'eihu"("In all your ways know God," Proverbs 3:6), even when doing an averah (transgression) (Brachos 63a). If one does an averah, instead of breaking away from God, one can come closer to G-d by doing other mitzvos. God is always with us. When a person falls, he falls into the lap of God.
"Va-yar Elokim et kol asher asah v-hinei tov meod" ("And God saw all that He had made, and found it very good." Genesis 1:31). Every person is created in the image of God (be-tzelem Elokim, Bereshis 1:27 and 9:6). We do not understand why God has created us this way (whether it is genetic or acquired, the Torah does not express any view) and why God created others with different characteristics. My sister in law is disabled, but still loved by God. I am homosexual. I am love by God.
We are as beloved in the eyes of God as any other Jew and we are as responsible as any other Jew in observing the mitzvos. We will merit the same share in the world to come as all other Jews, as it is written "Kol Yisrael yesh la-hem chelek l'olam ha-bah" ("All Israel has a share in the world to come" Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1).
What about the mitzvah of pru urvu (procreation)? Now the great Tanna (Sage) Shimon Ben Azzai, who never married or had children, said "the world can be perpetuated by others." (Yevamos 63b). As it says in Isaiah 56:3: "And let not the saris [the male who cannot have children] say, "I am a withered tree." For thus said the L-rd: "As regards the sarisim who keep My sabbaths, who have chosen what I desire, and hold fast to My covenant -- I will give them, in My House and within My walls, a monument and a name better than sons or daughters. I will give them an everlasting name which shall not perish."
6). Conclusion
So where does this leave me. I'm gay- as you all know-
And as I've said before my sexual activity is no one's business but mine, because I have lots to say on the whole world, not just my orientation, I rarely discuss there issues.
The thing is, I am a lesbian. When people make outrageous public statements about my sexuality it really hurts, even when they say why are you taking this personally? What if I said it was evil for a straight man to fancy a woman? What if I said to straight men, you can only marry other men?They should try to understand that people are not clones, but made in the image of God, just like all of humanity. Indeed our rabbis and sages said that you cannot judge a fellow unless you stand in their shoes.
I don't know why, but I have always been attracted to other women. I have never been attracted to men. I don't hate men and I have many male friends, very close male friends, but I cannot have sex or love with them in that way and I'm deeply in love with one woman, who's my soul mate.I didn't choose this, but I am still human. I work, pay
my taxes and do all the things that other people do. I don't think that I should be thought of as something less than a decent human being.
I love God and our Torah, my Jewish people and gentiles & worship him , whilst observing the mitzvot as best I can. I struggle, I love, I follow. Hashem is my God, Mitzvot my goal
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